West Van Matters - WVM2007-25*: July 23/25 MTG NOTES; Calendar to Aug 31st/Sep

=== REGULAR COUNCIL MEETING JULY 23 ======= [directly follows PH]<= /div>
CALL TO ORDER

1. APPROVAL OF AGENDA

Mayor: approval of amended Agenda wch includes adoption of minutes and Item 5

[JF moved.]

Mayor: need motion to reconvene Wed 9am; add to agenda

Minutes of July 9 third item?

[SSch pointed out wd be an add'l sp ccl mtg Wed July 25 9am (clarification)]

Mayor: anyone here for anything? anything other than Item 5? will reconvene PH

2. ADOPTION OF MINUTES -- Adoption of July 09, 2007 Regular Council Minutes

DONE

---moved to Wed:

DELEGATIONS

3.         B. Robinson, Canadian Freestyle Ski Association, regarding an Overview of the Freestyle FIS World Cup Skiing Competition at Cypress Mountain February 09/10, 2008 for receipt

REPORTS

4.         2008 Freestyle World Cup Opportunities for West Vancouver

---------------

5.         Zoning Bylaw No. 2200, 1968 Amendment Bylaw No. 4517, 2007 (File:  1610?204517)

            If the reconvened Public Hearing/Public Meeting regarding Zoning Bylaw No. 2200, 1968, Amendment Bylaw No. 4517, 2007 and Development Permit Application 06?034 for Collingwood School (Wentworth Campus) held on July 23, 2007 has closed, the following may be considered by Council:

RECOMMENDED for second and third readings

JF: can't approve for reasons given; feel school hasn't worked enough with nbrs

don't think proposal for nbrhd necessarily best for

JC: too big a for small nbrhd; not a nbrhd school like Hollyburn; bringing ppl in from all over Lower Mainland

only xxx yet only .....

doesn't make sense, xxx

Ridgeview xxx ... don't know

each and ev elementary school, they have been worked on by our Engg

changed -- one-way streets, have been mitigated in ea and ev school, now last is Rockridge

doesn't happen over night; haven't seen any evidence by C'wood to be proactive; and be gd nbr they say

VV: v little to add to what I've heard; made signif changes in intention

headmaster -- effort to listen to, new spirit but it's a little too late, needed that a year ago

engaging the cmnty now

see what several months of negotiation might bring

can't go forward with a nbrhd so united against the project

without enough time

series of productive mtgs with school

agreeing with my colleagues not in position to approve

RD: agree with my colleagues

initial hope, wd internalize traffic and improve situation

struck with the Morven debates and now, the depth of bitterness

change its way; change a bad regime; magnitude of animosity and bitterness

Ccl really has no choice to but to vote against this bylaw

come back when it's got its act together

Mayor: find myself agreeing with Ccl

have really worked hard for years with C'wood to connect with nbrhd

ev has reasonable ... pride ... and connectedness

everyone on Ccl believes in C'wood and believes.,,,,,

we wd like to look at a proposal...

and shaped

probably it is too ambitious given the road network and xxx

no more motivated

to work

school will be.....

better

am sure first time ppl have heard that tonight

closing

all kinds of ideas

this is either not understood or too ambitious

Ccl great been xxxx

congratulate C'wood work done on Morven

second reading moved

[FAILS!!!]

Mayor: expect to see C'wood back and to work with cmnty.

[THEN MOTION TO RECONVENE July 25th 9am PASSES]

Mayor: I feel compelled to ask for for public questions. Is there any this evening?

VV: not even Carolanne is going to-- no?

Mayor: I know, only a bit of an announcement... RoyalTea

CR: very kind of you

Mayor: you thought I'd never ask!

CR, laughing (this was unexpected, had given up b/c so late, so put on my fancy tea hat and rushed up to say):

The RoyalTea is on Saturday from 2 to 4, and I hope you'll all come. Eighth annual one; pipers will be there. Thank you very much for allowing me to invite you all, after such a long meeting.

{In the surprise and rush I forgot to say it wd be at Dundarave Park; since so late I'd expected the Mayor to make the announcement b/c I'd had the flyer passed up to her.}

[ADJOURNMENT]

=== SPECIAL COUNCIL MTG -- JULY 25= ======= [Wed 9am]

Mayor: Good morning. Welcome. Apologize cdn't get through all our biz on Monday night but it was an important one for Collingwood. Approval of Agenda.

Sop: shd read special reg ccl mtg; withdraw Item 5 Animal Control Bylaw HBay, adding items 17 to 24 in Correspondence.

SSch: have received add'l Correspondence re 2484 Ottawa and they will be added as 25 and 26.

Mayor, renumbered agenda items: moving to Item 2

DELEGATIONS

3.         B. Robinson, Canadian Freestyle Ski Association, regarding an Overview of the Freestyle FIS World Cup Skiing Competition at Cypress Mountain February 09/10, 2008 for receipt

REPORTS

4.         2008 Freestyle World Cup Opportunities for West Vancouver

RECOMMENDED: THAT

            1.         The District of West Vancouver work in partnership with the Canadian Freestyle Ski Association around hosting the 2008 Freestyle World Cup at Cypress Mountain in February 2008;

            2.         Staff develop a plan and infrastructure for using the 2008 Freestyle World Cup to develop and expand our volunteer capacity, to build upon existing arts and culture programs and events, and to develop youth opportunities, sponsorships and partnerships; and

            3.         The details of the plan for West Vancouver's role in the Freestyle World Cup event be forwarded to Council for consideration and approval in the 2008 budget.

Bruce Robinson: [slide show] 200 volunteers; The Show Comes to West Vancouver

Sop: budget, $500K, in kind or?

Mayor: questions?

Ans: self-financed: in kind and what is comfortable

Sop: will ask later

JF: exciting; love opp; mentoring;

Ans: two-year project, 2008 but includes 2009; want to make long-term, not just 2010

MOTION

JChuback, staff: can't think of a better way; presentation energetic and inspiring

partners Ch of Comm, Cyp, Park Royal, xxx

engagement and volunteerism; opp to build infrastructure

already had enquiries of ppl wanting to volunteer

area need to look at re resources, in-kind or one-time sp grants possibly mgmt, enhancement for opening ceremony arts and culture component; we're working closely with Bruce

come back in fall, details etc

JF: maybe a WG, may be assistance out in the cmnty

Mayor: esp when combination; add that as a fourth, ref to WG

Sop: what is our portion of the budget? what's it going to cost?

JCh: to be worked out and choices for Ccl; from special events or grants budget

Sop: really supportive but open ticket -- what's the cost? any idea?

JCh: at a grant level of $5-10K, that wd be financial plus in-kind support

if Ccl chose, particular areas want to support

Sop: approval in 2008 budget; how assume what needed? as it comes along? what's our resp in the $500K

JCh: I expect we'll be working closely with our partners

expect in 2007, minimal support in budget in sp events; wd receive info in time

JC: wd like to point out to Cclr Sop that no 3 demands come back to Ccl; what I wd like to say, that over last couple of years since awarded there's been a lot negative, it's a two-week event -- this is an example, this is an event that cd happen year after year, I think in WV we need this sort of thing

Mayor: we are ready; we hired a Partnership Mgr to manage

{hm. This is news. Wonder if we'll find out more.}

we're being pushed to act

I've already been approached by sponsors; those sponsors have to fit in with our plan

agree with you Cclr Clark, time to get going

VV: from the way I read this, can vote in favour of this while not intending to put cash in

choice when xxx

not an impediment to supporting this

CARRIED

[Now Item 4:]

6.         Evelyn Drive Master Plan Approval (File:  1010?20?06?050)

[Sop always leaves for ED items b/c of conflict of interest]

RECOMMENDED: THAT The proposed Master Plan for Evelyn Drive be approved, subject to insertion of the revised sustainability section, illustrative site plans, and statistics contained in Appendix A, and design conditions detailed in Appendix C to the report from the Manager of Community Planning dated July 13, 2007.

G Boyle: three-part setup

first, architecture's design; secondly sustainability; staff re how measures up to bylaw

Nick Milkovich, architect, in front: 1-500Ksf of devt; it's steep enough for free-style skiing

natural setting, mature trees that have grown up

access to Pk Royal, zoning

three areas: minimize impact of devt on site, esp natural aspects; footprint is 31% coverage and that excludes paths through site, only 1.5% higher than sgl fam-lot ...

stepped housing; cluster housing; stepped terrace housing never more than two storeys above grade

cluster housing and apts integrate parking in lower edge, joint, minimizing impact of parking

ask Susan Wilkinson re environment, sustainability

SW: [slides] section in master plan that outline the goals and principles, commitment

exciting opp both for WV and Millennium, xxx

infill, smart growth, close to transportation

identified principles, measurable goals, used LEED rating system

three headings: sustainability LEED on concrete bldgs; use of LEED guidelines for sgl fam and townhomes. Can't achieve on woodframe bldgs b/c no standards for them but using as many as possible

doing as much as possible to retain trees

revegetation 50% of site

potable water use, 30% reduction, rainwater harvesting; pedestrian linkage worked with District

energy efficiency goal, geothermal will be explored for this site, healthy indoor quality

local bldg materials

three categories of LEED: design (where we are now): construction (reusing); occupancy

don't apply till occupancy; working with staff, made changes to current version

transparent process; don't get certification till occupancy

Mike Kemble: coordinator of this project for the District

consistent with CD1 zone adopted Apr 2 this year

innovation and sustainability

provide comfortable bldg fit, mix of residential units as well as variety of sizes and rental, pathways (see Evelyn Walk on slide)

50ft grade diff between PkR and Ev Dr

attractive streetscape and public realm

expect West Coast character; natural as well as more contemporary materials

proposal consistent with zoning except for a few areas and will be dealt with at bldg permit phase

use, number of units, lot sizes, site coverages (slight overage but overall do meet)

ht, in upper area A, technically these bldgs wd be considered five to six storeys but b/c of low, within

bldgs not always parallel to prop lines

we support variances, site differences b/c of trees, low profiles of bldgs, etc

other connections up to Keith Rd and to Taylor Way and to west

will be improvements to Keith Rd, and tree plantings; new roundabout connection in newly configuration of Ev Dr

displays at Pk Royal, most supportive; some concern about traffic and that will be dealt with with 2008 traffic calming study

Design, two mtgs, supported; disability cmte supported walk as proposed

sensitive response to site; devt will provide a mix and variety that fit with terrain

strong and unique sense of place; staff recommend approval with ..... and design... in section C

JF: how long do you think it's going to take to complete?

Hank Jasper: think in booklet, two phases and each about two and a half years so five to seven years

JF: ?

HJ: phase one western, working west to east

Mayor: wrt report, page 4: re concrete will meet min of LEED

I'd like to see shooting for gold

SW: 69 points available, 26 certified, 33 silver, gold 39

have to get into more detail of design to know; we can min, decision is .....xxx they decide

you cannot

aiming for certified level and aiming for more

Mayor: in conclusion, an adequate response to sustainability response, adequate?

Kemble: staff have asked for improvements, in your report; cd be higher, we acknowledge the dvpr is doing his best; clarify goals, some things not willing to admit

HJ: largest sust project in Canada right now except for Olympic Village....

able to start with base of 10 - 12 points in City; if we had that here no problem, we've had to do xxx, but we don't know where we're going to end up not having completed design

RD: some suggestion add an amendment, subject to LEED goals?

Mayor: objective might give goal/push

JC: might give bit of guideline

VV: don't think we shd allow the so-called minor variance to front setback, 20ft to 10ft, 50% is not minor; don't know why we'd want to allow that sort of devt

wd like us to keep the 20ft setback, don't think wise so close on a slope

wd set a precedent and think ppl living in the houses wd appreciate

wd like to add phrase, maintaining 20ft setback along Keith

GBoyle, Planning staff: if go back 20ft whole way, one corner is less but other end more so adds some variety and that was intent

direction going in? you'll see that later on

Mayor: seconder? no? then no amendment.

VV: appreciate twisted, only a corner, average, but sets a precedent

if 10%, or 2 or 3ft, might have been okay but 50% too much, will simply maintain my objection

JC: the LEED standard is the buzz word

[cell phone buzzed!]

HJ: you said buzz word!

JC: don't think ever been description, incentives for dvpr or just happy face at end of project?

GB: able to market at end

JC: selling tool

GB: yes; they come in and say meet it

the whole area of sust construction, nbrhds evolving v quickly

Olympic Village project is a pilot project -- new standard developing, more than emerging

JF: how pleased I am with this proposal, when you consider controversy around Ev Dr, and from outset; in fact we don't have a legion of residents voicing concerns

obviously devpr listened closely and to staff and have gone the distance

sensitive to those who retained their lots

think it's going to be a wonderful gateway; understand West Coast architecture beginnings of WV

think wonderful

RD: looking at model, notice some houses remain; six on one side and one other

to scale? apt bldgs built into slope, do the houses fit in?

HJ: to scale

GB: doesn't show detail

Ans: 2000sf, these 3-4K

RD: can't help but admire the architecture; lots of units fit into hillside and less impact than sgl fam dwellings; seem to fit better, nice touch; blend into hillside, proper colouring and trees; compliments

Mayor: Design Review Cmte enthusiastically endorsed this

happy to see Appendix C will xxx

stretch to the LEED

question about $350K

and a traffic circle further up Sentinel Hill; those residents have taken a great interest

GB: think I know area you're referring to; $350K to accommodate study and improvements

cd be one of the improvements

CARRIED

[This, as item 5, has been withdrawn:]

7.         Animal Control Bylaw 4208, 2000 Amendment Bylaw No. 4520, 2007 - Horseshoe Bay Park Dog Control Designation for receipt, then to third reading.

10:03am [Item 6 now]

8.         Sublease Modification - Sewell's Limited for receipt.

Mayor: wait for Cclr Sop to return

CARRIED

Item 7 now

9.         Revised Official Community Plan Amendment, Rezoning and Development Permit Application 07-015 (2388 and 2396 Marine Drive)

RECOMMENDED: THAT Staff complete a review of revised Development Application No. 07?015 after holding a Neighbourhood Consultation Meeting to solicit community comment on issues associated with the proposed Official Community Plan and Zoning Amendment for 2388 and 2396 Marine Drive.

Elaine Fonseca: Prez of ADRA; our Assn supports controlled grown; existing nbrhds; opposes upzoning

15 units on site; this is a duplex zone

more traffic, congestion; sets a precedent

feedback we get is preserve, limit density, ....; retain quiet quaint; protect

we feel too large a project in this area

Karl Gustavson: thank you for having us here; brief outline of what project about

based on feedback; reduced from 20 to 15 from three storeys to two, ...

also cons???

from 21Ksf to 17Ksf, reflects what cd be built under C1 and ....

not increase, a rearrangement

the key component what.... not what outside

local cmnty, v desirable of having elimination of commercial component, ...... lane

two excerpts from letters submitted: highlight my perspective

Robert Smith and ..... from Bellevue -- nbrhd concerns and wishes

share a residential lane, keeping comm vehicular traffic to min

C1 site wd allow commercial uses

OCP amendment we're looking for HC 3; site specific situations

H3 highlights certain items

devt minimal impact and obstruction of views

v lengthy and continual survey of view corridors

at second mtg we held, residents on Haywood concerned view blockage now none

H3 goes on to say separation, Mr Gremmet (sp?) lives next to lot will be turned into duplex and he's supportive b/c of elimination of commercial

lessen xxx

H3 goes on approp may include.....; know I'm always supporting adaptable bldgs

going to read another, 2372 MDr, Rebecca Buchanan: for us the devt means so much, means my dad will be able to live on one level in a suite for his needs, affordable and sustainable housing where I grew up and love so much

that's what H3 is for

summarize by saying process gone through; began as an all-commercial project; clear msg that came back was no commercial so I was engaged for residential, looked at live-work

mtg at Library 50 to 70 ppl came, and again no commercial, no view blockage, no traffic down lane; access to our parkade same as to C1 bldg but directed to 24th

.... wd have to come off lane

current restaurant off 24th but does not xxx

spoken to 55, not all, adjacent nbrs; majority with exception of two of the 55 v supportive of what we're wanting to do

asking Ccl; so we can demonstrate to you that this is the right project

RD: you said sq ftg wd be the same as if comm/resid

KG: true; if you include basement and garage, assume from est 17Ksf, my opinion

RD: supposing devt turned down and you had to build duplex on eastern and on restaurant site xxx

how many units on restaurant site?

KG: think we can get uh, haven't done analysis; probably ten units, eight to ten

RD: diff of three to five units

KG: small, HC amendment controversial but benefit here is great

speaker before me said wd set a precedent and no; only speaking about eliminating commercial otherwise wdn't be here; that can't happen

RD: any envtal advantages to sgl bldg rather than two bldgs?

KG: wrt sust, can do better with one; can be more economical, better efficiency with one bldg as opposed to two

[JC made motion]

VV: important to understand what HC 3 is

xxx

reiterating what wider cmnty wants; point of.... was to put wishes of wider cmnty

may not do what it describes.....

lays out conditions

H3 says, provide a degree of physical separation....[list]

check list, then can meet that test; if it fails that test then can't approve it

OCP is up for review for next Ccl; don't think we're legally entitled to do this

says it's up to whole cmnty not just those who live immediately around

voted against with 22 [units], now 15; can simply be rezoned to duplex and that wdn't contravene these xxx

did have an interesting complaint from a resident.... staff seemed to be advocacy

are staff reports supposed to be...objective critique; not bias?

SJN: staff reports options, can recommend

while H3; there is no sgl-fam nbrhd next to this; xxx

you're quite correct, Ccl is not to take an action against what's provided for in the OCP

there's some silence in the OCP what to do in this case

you cd actually change zoning xxx ; we don't recommend that

...permit area so can control design

..... consider residential area; consult with residents for example on Ottawa whether or not complies with bylaw; some in immed vicinity believe better

shd go out and xxx

VV: my reading of this, it does talk about multiple Ev Dr, Clyde Ave.... still multiple-fam; that's where mentions natural separation

obviously I don't have the last word; I understand this to be wishes of wider cmnty

if change, has to be another round of OCP hearings and new OCP.

on basis of what's in front of me I can't agree this...... but cd change comm to resid

JF: wd like to commend the applicant; example of an applicant that has more than followed...... applicant has made ev effort to speak.. xxx

changes on sev occasions, completely revamping

next step is for staff to hold ....... before coming to Ccl to xxx

fully support holding mtg; bring up concerns brought up by Cclr V

look forward to Ccl discussion and debate

am familiar with OCP, guidelines, designed to be flexible

prev OCP had 30+ amendments; Ccls amend OCPs to meet needs in cmnty

identified need for smaller, more accessible accommodation

so those of us who live in large houses can ......

now faced with conundrum, imp to keep in mind as proceed

JC: been made abundantly clear over the years; the broad nbrhd not pleased with bldgs on these two sites

clear over last few weeks, not particularly enthralled with replacing the comm on this site

whether this proposal the answer, I'm not sure, but we have the opp through Mr Gust and client, opp to replace with something better

this motion requires staff -- through process of holding a nbrhd mtg, not nec just one

ev man woman and child in WV, anybody who drives by it

think this is exactly what the OCP had in mind; creating a facility for ppl to get together and express

RD: think we shd go to nbrhd mtg; verify what Mr G says through mtgs

get last OCP in shape

intention was to protect nbrhds; duplex zoning is a form of multiple fam already

extension of Dund itself; across the street is two-storey comm

this devt is absolutely consistent with Dund nbrhd

Mr G has made contributions too -- putting in coffee shop

think there's an advantage to a sgl bldg, doesn't really increase the density

ten as opposed to 15, given superior bldg; think we shd go ahead

what cmnty wants, be v careful; protection of sgl fam nbrhds but perfectly acceptable mixed comm/resid

still involves some units -- live/work; so some element; shd move ahead

Sop: amazing how we can stickhandle our ways through

H3.... now; will have some interpretation of what it all means to us

in position RT1 shd be compromised into multi-fam

sq ftg not much diff from what was before us before

talked to ppl, sets a precedent; it's not sgl fam

cd build duplexes on site; three or six duplexes

not in support of going any further

know it can go to mtgs, take its own way

don't like the change in that area, won't support it

VV: back to point OCP bylaw, that was a xxx

it's a senior level of govt, takes five cclrs [to pass]

a M decision cannot be inconsistent or in conflict with [the OCP]

must be clear ...; not make xxx

JF: I have great respect for the OCP

had not been ratified, but I remember six mbrs of Ccl voted in favour of OCP, Cclr Sop did not that's his prerogative

Six did approve it xxx

simply discussing whether or not broader cmnty to meet with staff and have discussion

RD: restaurant is not duplex-zoned; change restaurant zoning; it's one duplex site

if turned down duplex on east side and some sort of commercial on west; cd be worse

no advantage to existing zoning I can see

duplex is mutlifam; Design has no xxx

not that we're endangering sgl-fam zone, contrary we're strengthening; where are ppl going to live

Ms Scholes, can two block this?

SSch: it's a majority; formerly was two thirds but now majority of cclrs, not just those present

RD: if all there?

SSch: wd require four

Sop: not my job to tell devpr what to put there

[JF burst of laughter]

Sop: glad you find that humorous

ratified OCP but not housing part

have left it with one, two, or three housing policies; Cclr Clark is now in that stage, look forward with great interest what's going to come out of that WG

if we take an area that has a certain character and suddenly asked to look at a multifam, think it's going to have a direct effect on that nbrhd

not supporting it

look at C1 zone, we shd tell dvpr to put there, he has to come back to us

JC: pt of order, this recommendation does not consider any amendments to OCP

authorizes staff to go out to cmnty and have a coffee party and ask what xxx

off, not.... amending for crying out loud

Mayor: at present eyesore; working with Cclr JF, SJN

point was to provide..... protection, b/c of TZ; been dead for seven years

on arterial road xxx

we all purport to hv spoken for nbrhd and believe we all have

... v best way we can do this is to send out to nbrhd; my hope is it succeeds

... here are steps we have to go through

first and foremost is xxx ; assume happen in Sept

RD: reason I asked about vote was that at one time two votes wd hv bn enough to defeat so then no point to proceed but now changed

Mayor: Item 9, no I mean 8

10.       Development Permit Application 06?015 for a [Two-Lot] Subdivision at 4249 Rockbank Place

RECOMMENDED: THAT the report dated July 12, 2007 from the Manager, Community Planning regarding Development Permit (Difficult Terrain) Application 06-015 which would provide for a [two-lot] subdivision at 4249 Rockbank Place be received for consideration on Monday September 10, 2007.

Mayor: has been a tricky one

GB: yes, Sept 10 will hear from applicant and nbrhd; been some minor changes since applic came in

imp all hv opp to come to [provide points of view]

Mayor: Item no 9

11.       Process for Consideration of an Equestrian Centre (File:  1020?01)

RECOMMENDED: THAT the report dated July 17, 2007 from the Director of Planning, Lands and Permits titled "Process for Consideration of an Equestrian Centre" be received.

SJN: Ccl asked us to report back to us; eight to nine acres, formerly 26

proponent has identified a number of sites

far more complex below the 1200ft level; there are areas above useful, land has not been acquired and that has not been intended

site in Rodgers Crk area, never contemplated

question is whether can be brought up in discussion of Rodgers Crk; said that staff will be considering overall uses

may consider the equestrian aspect of that xxx but re lands to west wd require envtal studies

if a parcel comes up above the 1200ft level we cd be bringing that forward to Ccl

Ccl owns land well above the 1200ft level except for one park site, Allan Crk

dealing with private lands to be acquired or M; wd be a process for that

proponent modest cost

normal process wd be for Ccl to decide what sort of eq ctr and then put out for proposals, not deal with one proponent

..... natural parks, mtn bikes

Mayor: ?

VV: one or two questions

NV has an equestrian ctr and has had it for several decades; seven or eight acres and as a private enterprise

researched that?

understand

apply to NV then to us; any legal reason we can't do it that way?

SJN: can; we do deal with public land: tennis club, lawn bowling club, Hollyburn Sailing Club

we define the needs then put them out to bid

xxx

those types of tools av; what wd not be permitted wd be for the M to provide land to a for-profit xxx that is aiding

VV: then how can NV do that, a family biz?

SJN: they wd be negotiating for commercial/market value

we do as with a concession stand

what renewal wd be

we cd acquire land and then advertise for bids

VV: other thing I'm curious about, that no one is really available to work on this

waiting for the best part of another year for staff to be av to work on this

SJN: staff will never have time to do envtal studies, devpr does that -- millions$

other parcels, acquiring

either going to pay market; Ccl wd be subsidizing use, IOW xxx {taxpayers' money?}

if land outside of area devt lands, cd be a private proponent cd do studies; they are expensive

the only example I cd think of of that was a golf course; they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and M was sued

not something go into easily

{POINT OF ORDER: not quite.

The difference was that it was the District itself that proposed a golf course and then asked for bids to provide one. They had a cmte and did choose one.

Little snag.

Turns out it was on park land that cd only be removed from park land with a referendum. The referendum turned that down.

Readers are astute enough to realize not just that the instigation was DWV not a private operator so it's a different situation/responsibility, but also that perhaps DWV ought to have gone to referendum before asking for golf course applications.

hm

I was on Ccl then and it was residents who informed me that a referendum was needed.

Yes, you read correctly. Residents. Not the Mayor, not some other members of Ccl (others besides me were not informed), and in particular, not staff come to think of it, who must have known.

Ah, yes, Minister. (for those familiar with the BBC)

BTW,